I'm going to school fulltime this term, which makes getting to late evening meetings a bit of a problem. Usually when people whine about why things can't be scheduled for their convenience they don't get that much symphathy. This last time Darklady made a truly revolutionary suggestion (at least it got my attention). If you want something, create it for yourself.
With the idea of making my life work for me, I've set up an opportunity to join me at a discussion table for a time that I need to be on campus and have free time. I'm inviting those who are also on or near campus and have the time, to join me for an afternoon of entertaining, enlightening, and emboldening conversation on the topic of ethical, honest, and responsible non-monogamy in all its incarnations.
3:15 p.m. - 5:20 p.m.
Food for Thought Cafe
Basement of the Smith Memorial Center
located on Broadway between Montgomery and Harrison
Portland, Oregon 97207
Enter through the doors right behind the TriMet bus shelter, under the marque doorway. Go through the ticket lobby space. Take the elevator in the hallway which runs parallet to the ground floor cafeteria (not the one near the Info counter). Go to B for basement, the cafe is a right out of the elevators, on the left side of the hallway.
I'll try to reserve the larger round table in the far corner. I will try to bring some small poly symbol to identify the group if I remember, usually a book, otherwise you'll need to use your sleuthing powers to recognize me from my profile photo.
Poly experienced, poly newbie or just poly-curious are all welcome to join in the discussion. Food is vegetarian/vegan for those who come with empty tummies. They do a pretty spectacular job of keeping me fed during the term. Stumptown coffee is only a buck!
Past conversational topics
Jan 10 - Different ways of doing and labeling our relationships, advantages to dating those who have experience negotiating boundaries
Jan 17 - CANCELLED: SNOW DAY
Jan 24 - NRE, expectations in relationships, co-housing and polyamory, "Getting Real" game cards
With the idea of making my life work for me, I've set up an opportunity to join me at a discussion table for a time that I need to be on campus and have free time. I'm inviting those who are also on or near campus and have the time, to join me for an afternoon of entertaining, enlightening, and emboldening conversation on the topic of ethical, honest, and responsible non-monogamy in all its incarnations.
3:15 p.m. - 5:20 p.m.
Food for Thought Cafe
Basement of the Smith Memorial Center
located on Broadway between Montgomery and Harrison
Portland, Oregon 97207
Enter through the doors right behind the TriMet bus shelter, under the marque doorway. Go through the ticket lobby space. Take the elevator in the hallway which runs parallet to the ground floor cafeteria (not the one near the Info counter). Go to B for basement, the cafe is a right out of the elevators, on the left side of the hallway.
I'll try to reserve the larger round table in the far corner. I will try to bring some small poly symbol to identify the group if I remember, usually a book, otherwise you'll need to use your sleuthing powers to recognize me from my profile photo.
Poly experienced, poly newbie or just poly-curious are all welcome to join in the discussion. Food is vegetarian/vegan for those who come with empty tummies. They do a pretty spectacular job of keeping me fed during the term. Stumptown coffee is only a buck!
Past conversational topics
Jan 10 - Different ways of doing and labeling our relationships, advantages to dating those who have experience negotiating boundaries
Jan 17 - CANCELLED: SNOW DAY
Jan 24 - NRE, expectations in relationships, co-housing and polyamory, "Getting Real" game cards
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Topic for next week's discussion?
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 10:39 AMI just found this great article on the del.icio.us site and wondering if anyone else has found any other useful sources of material on poly?
www.tikkun.org/magazine/t...ge/monogamy
I'm actually interested in exploring the roots of jealousy without hearing all the old trite explanations, many of which arose with the Myth of Monogamy. If you can't make it to PSU next Wednesday, and you got something out of the article, or have a unique perspective on jealousy, please post anyway. We'll discuss your thoughts without you...LOL -
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Unsu...
Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 4:03 PMI'd love to be there but unfortunately my daughters violin lessons conflict. D'oh! -
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 2:59 AMBring the violinist!
Or else, got any reflections on jealousy verus "empathetic joy" you wanna share on here? I'm just puzzling why seems so simple when it comes to parenting and so difficult when it comes to lovers. I can't imagine not being overjoyed when my child gets the opportunity to experience something wonderful. What's the barrier that makes that uncommon between lovers? -
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 11:09 AMOthers may have different takes on this, but one thing might be fear: Fear that by experiencing that "something wonderful" with another person, they might not feel quite so inclined to experience that "something wonderful" with you anymore.
I have actually experienced this phenomenon (not the jealousy/fear, but the bearing out of this scenario) inside the context of a polyamorous relationship, so it is not necessarily an irrational, unfounded fear, even inside that context. -
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 4:26 PMIt's certainly possible that within a poly context there are those who are still sampling relationships for the best possible fit. If, by experiencing that "something wonderful" with another, they realize that what seemed like a good fit before, isn't actually such a good fit after all, it might be that they do become less inclined to experience that "something wonderful" with you anymore.
I suppose you could approach this possibility with fear. For you this person might have felt like the perfect fit (is that possibly in a poly context?) or, at least, a pretty darned amazing fit. To learn that this isn't a mutual feeling can feel hurtful. I'm not sure that focusing on the additional relationship really helps you come to terms with what has happened.
Would it be more useful to see this as a process of getting closer and closer to what works for everyone? With monogamous relationships this might feel like your partner has been shopping all along and you've been put back on the shelf. But isn't that because the idea of monogamy is that each time you fall for someone, that relationship is "IT" and there can be no other at all comparable? So for you, s/he was "IT" even though you will eventually move on to another "IT" if the two of you break up.
With polyamory I'm all about balance in relationships. I want to be wanted in direct proportion to how much I want someone. I'm just assuming that the "something wonderful" is your euphemism for sex but it would apply to almost anything that you found you enjoyed doing together. For someone to want me less than I want him/her, makes it not a viable romantic/sexual relationship for me. I'm better off restructuring the relationship into something closer to some form of friendship with whatever level of emotional intimacy feels mutually satisfiying. Even a friendship will die off if there are different levels of interest in doing things together, spending time together.
So if part of jealousy is this fear of having your partner recognize that your feelings and desires about that "something wonderful" aren't mutual, what can you actually do about that possibility? I suppose it wouldn't hurt to choose as partners those who aren't still shopping. No one wants to feel like a discard. On the other hand, aren't we all continually defining and refining what works for us? In my mind, the difference with polyamory is that no-one needs to be discarded at all. If someone was wonderful enough to enter into a relationship on any level, what would really change about their "wonderfulness" if I weren't the best fit for them in terms of one of the many facets of a relationship? Wouldn't the other facets still be a wonderful experience we could share together? Don't I have the freedom to seek a better fit myself in the area where we just don't make a good match?
I've been reminded that fear isn't necessarily rational. Yet even when it is, aren't there responses that get us closer to finding what really works for us that are far more productive than continuing to believe that jealousy is the only option?
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 1:39 PMI think that it's a different dynamic. With my kids, I want them to grow up and go do stuff, to have their own lives, with me being mostly in the background somewhere. With lovers, I want to be in the front and center in their lives. Not that I don't think that my lovers shouldn't have their own lives, but feeling that I'm not being near the front and center when that is where I want to be can be quite scary.
I don't have a solution, I just don't completely think the comparison to having children idea always works.
Kate -
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 2:00 PM"With lovers, I want to be in the front and center in their lives."
My take is that this is perhaps the biggest issue when struggling with "empathetic joy" for another. Learning to trust our lovers enough to know that we are a valuable and important part of their lives without NEEDING to be front and center at all times.
There is a certain amount of "letting go" that one has to do to feel compersion for a lover. Ya know, the old adage...if you love someone, let them go and if they return...
I understand that it's impossible to be at the front and center of my lovers lives all of the time - all I ask is that when they are with me, they be fully present, mentally and emotionally. I also expect to be treated with the same consideration they would want when dealing with scheduling, etc... -
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Mon, January 29, 2007 - 1:25 AMwell said "B". Scheduling and consideration for thime well spent together can go a long way.
Also I believe jealousy can be summed up to fear as well. fear of being let down, fear of loss, fear of the unknown... Many different types of fear small or large, rational or irrational as they may be, can feed into jealousy. That's were the well said but not overstaded philosophy of communication comes in. I feel that for me, when I communicate with my SO's about their new loves well and am able to meet the others when possible, the compersion settles in. -
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Unsu...
Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Mon, January 29, 2007 - 1:22 PMWell let me adress jealosy first. It is a fear based emotion but think of it more as a survival instinct. Our instincts tend to be more complex when you've had a child to raise but also become more clear as they on the surface of our consiousness as opposed to a feeling in which can't understand it's origin. I don't for instance feel that any polyamorous relationship should have lovers that are unknown to all involved. As a matter of fact I have witnessed most relationships end this way because we are not comfortable with the unknown factor that is sharing with our partner.
This is a primary difference between swinging and poly relationships. When SO's are in volved in a swining relationship they don't often know their partners lovers. In a poly relationship all of those involved in the relationship also have intimate relationships on some level with their partners. When a new lover is found all take the time to get to know each other to simply be comfortable with each other working towards friendship at the very least.
Jealosy is fear of the unknown. Fear of the possibility of losing someone and fear of inadequacy. But it is entirely natural. Overcoming jealosy is a matter of love, trust and communication. I don't feel it's a matter of letting go as much as being informed and comfortable with a person or situation. The minute we stop respecting our SO's feelings in the matter is the moment that we begin to lose the relationship.
Example: My lover has met someone that she is interested in having a relationship with. I say great, when do I get to meet him/her so I can begin to not feel threatened. So we meet. I like him/her ok but would like more time to get to know him/her. My SO moves ahead disregarding my concerns or needs and jumps in the sack with him/her anyways. This makes me defensive and angry because my feelings were ignored. This will very likely be the beginning of the end because my SO was being selfish and putting their needs/desires before my own when in fact there should have been more respect for how I felt. Worse, it then puts my SO on the defensive and my SO chooses the easy way out with his/her new lover so they don't have to be responsible for the relationship and can start a new one without all the hassle of simple communication and respect.
"Letting go" to me is like building a sand castle only to watch the waves take it away being left to grasp at what little satisfaction is left over from the effort and hopefully a thing or two is learned.
Swinging and Polyamory walk a thin line betwixt the two but I feel the main difference is that all involved have a connection on some level and a commitment on some level. Swinging does not. It's just f*#king the next piece of strange that comes along and tweeks your nay nay. ;}
Now you'll have to excuse me while I go read the original post to see how far off track I got. lol! -
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Unsu...
Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Mon, January 29, 2007 - 1:37 PMOk so back to it. I feel that empathic joy comes when the following conditions are met. Trust, open communication, and respect for everyones feelings. Impatience to move a realtionship forward to quickliy without taking these things fully into consideration can be disasterous. Empathy is developed over time as a connection is built between SO's. I will personally bear witness to strong empathic connections with my SO's to the point of sharing physical sensations, (some not always pleasant like her cramps...ow) but we begin to get into the realm of tantric connections here.
I've also been involved in rituals to help bring folks together to share a group mind which is simply taking a proactive role in creating a connection as opposed to meeting at the pub to get to know someone.
So like with children there is perfect love and perfect trust, unconditional love but it takes time. With your own child you are connected before they even emerge into the world you are building a connection with them. It's really wonderful too. But think about it. Your already taking nine months to build up to your first real meeting. Alot of energy goes into that. And when you finally do meet it's virtually indescribable the empathic joy that is felt. Capiche? Or am I just a babbling yutz. ;}
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 8:26 PMSo Darkwingedfae, is jealousy just a shorthand for fear in all its disguises then? I've been wondering that myself, as it seems everyone's experience of jealousy seems tied to whatever it is they fear most in their lives.
For example, I no longer fear being replaced. I pretty much get it that I'm irreplaceably unique and so is everyone else. Some other person, no matter what their great qualities, can't really take my place. I'm the only one that can occupy that space. On the other hand, I do have a fear of being left out, excluded, or generally ignored. I can feel more jealousy around that than whether my lover has a special connection to someone else. If I am included in his joy in the other relationship, then I don't feel jealousy and can easily get to compersion. If he keeps the other relationship secret or sufficiently private, I can get triggered, begin worrying, and generally fall into a funk if I don't stop myself and check in with my partner.
"I feel that for me, when I communicate with my SO's about their new loves well and am able to meet the others when possible, the compersion settles in."
Seems to me that the more willing my SO is to communicate specifically about his new and old loves, the closer I feel to him, the less I fear being excluded (replaced, abandoned, whatever the flavor of your favorite fear might be). It is when I'm closest to my love's heart as he experiences joy in something or someone else, that I love him the most. For me, no-one is more attractive/appealing/amazing than someone experiencing and expressing love, whether that love is for me or for some passion in his life or some person he has found who inspires love in him. I feel an expanded sense of myself as a loving being when I feel that love arising in him and am able to rejoice in it. I can't think of a better high myself.
On the down side, no-one's SO can communicate everything there is about another relationship. At some point, I need to wrestle with my own fears. Perhaps when I understand what it is I fear about being excluded, that fear will no longer have any power over me. It's certainly not true that everyone on the planet will seek to exclude me at the very same moment of the very same day. In which case, it's not true that my very survival is threatened. I do have other options. Part of me thinks all these fears have to do with a belief that this is a Universe of Scarcity instead of an Abundant Universe. Is there really a shortage of love? Will I lose it all if I lose this one opportunity to secure enough?
Meeting my love's other loves can help if I approach it from the intent of recognizing how uniquely amazing they are as well. It's especially wonderful if we can share an appreciation for someone new. Unless the other person is giving off competitive or possessive vibes, that is usually enough for me to cease seeing her as any sort of threat to my relationship with my partner. I think I actually begin to imagine we can be enhancements to each other's lives, whether directly or indirectly.
I don't know how this works for people who have a partner who is still dating or creating relationships with monogamous people. Perhaps those vibes are always going to be there for them. I no longer get involved with people who are not committed to openness in their relationships. Our socialization in this scarcity model of relationships and the social supports for it can carry such weight that it often takes a conscious effort to overcome these fearful responses.
Perhaps those who rarely experience jealousy can tell us something about how they have avoided the socialization which says that jealousy is proof of a greater love rather than sign of some unexamined fears?
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Re: Topic for next week's discussion?
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 6:20 PM"Learning to trust our lovers enough to know that we are a valuable and important part of their lives without NEEDING to be front and center at all times."
It wouldn't hurt to ask for our lovers to communicate that we are a valuable and important part of their lives in some verbal or behavioral way. If a lover isn't communicating that in some way I can understand, couldn't I just be imagining it? That wouldn't be any different than imagining I'm not valuable and important.
The problem might be with some underlying assumption about needing a lover/partner to feel this way about us. I suspect some of my earliest experiences of jealousy had more to do with needing some kind of affirmation from my lover/partner when I wasn't centered enough to give myself that affirmation. Based on that need, I probably spent more time trying to be pleasing and less time being pleased.
Nowadays (40 some years later) I know I'm valuable and important and am less dependent of hearing it from someone else. Thus, when I don't hear it, it's not so devastating. It's not about my value and importance. Even though it may be about my lovers/partners feelings about, and commitment to, me, I recognize it as more of a sign about the relationship. I can work on that.
" I understand that it's impossible to be at the front and center of my lovers lives all of the time - all I ask is that when they are with me, they be fully present, mentally and emotionally."
This is really the only commitment I feel I can make in my relationships. Along with the commitment to be as honest as I'm capable of being in the moment (I used to say 100% honest but recognized recently that might be setting myself up for failure). If both of us are fully present and commit to honesty, what happens when we are elsewhere or with someone else really cannot threaten what we have together.
In my practice of polyamory, I do check in with my partner about any other connections. This keeps us both up to date on how we feel about each other and how we are feeling about others. This kind of sharing of emotional details (and sometimes the other kinds of details) is one of the ways I continue to feel included when my partner finds joy with another. For me it's really not a "letting go" as it is more of a "joining in" with whatever is allowing my partner to grow, evolve, shine. -
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No Topic for this week's discussion - BYO
Mon, February 5, 2007 - 4:11 PMI'm looking forward to meeting Lilla on Wednesday and if we're lucky Jime will take a break from her thesis and stop by to chat. Could it be Angel took a job or is the NRE with the new sweetie keeping her away? David's exam kept him from showing last Wednesday but Brad got off from work to sit a spell. I've invited a few folks from the Portland/Gresham Polyamory Meetup but have no idea if any of them have Wednesdays free.
Past conversational topics
Jan 10 - Different ways of doing and labeling our relationships, advantages to dating those who have experience negotiating boundaries
Jan 17 - CANCELLED: SNOW DAY
Jan 24 - NRE, expectations in relationships, co-housing and polyamory, "Getting Real" game cards
Jan 31 - Jealousy: when it shows up, what it means, where it comes from -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Topic for the Week: Who gets/gives the flowers, who gives/gets the chocolates? How to Guarantee a Happy Poly Valentine's Day!
Tue, February 13, 2007 - 3:22 AMLast week's turn out was light. Jerry showed up early and we caught up on our lives. Jerome was there but wasn't sure he identified me or the group table so did not join our discussion. Jime accepted a ride home from campus all the while wondering what she had forgotten to do. I looked for Lilla but never spotted her. I'm apologiizing to anyone who came and didn't feel properly welcomed.
All the discussions so far have been pretty much triggered by what people bring to the table. Jerry and I tackled the topic of poly dating, especially after 50. Jerome and I shared email on the same topic after he missed the actual meeting. I'm wondering how many others out there are puzzled and/or frustrated by the whole process of finding compatible polyamorous partners. Are there societal changes that have made this easier for younger poly people? Do those in their 20's and 30's have fewer monogamous barriers to hurdle with potential mates due to a relaxation in sexual and relationship norms or is there really no difference? I'd love to hear from anyone on this, whether you can make it on Wednesday or not.
My proposed topic is intended to solicit stories about managing multiple relationships. How do you make sure all your loves feel special to you on days like Valentine's but more importantly on a day to day basis? Me, I'm planning to surprise someone who expects no special treatment. What are you doing this Wednesday? -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Who gets/gives the flowers, who gives/gets the chocolates? How to Guarantee a Happy Poly Valentine's Day!
Wed, February 14, 2007 - 5:57 PMWhat a great conversation with Jimena!! We let ourselves wander all over the place the conversational landscape while enjoying the snacks provided for the opening of the Art Gallery in Food for Thought. As usual, the humus was the best I've had ever.
I was wondering if it was really worth my time sitting at the table waiting... but this was beyond expectation. We has so many things to talk about and poly was just one of them. Maybe in two weeks, when Jimena is free to return, another member of the Meetup or Tribe or the Yahoo group will join us. Every week it's been a surprise, always the conversation is enlightening, often entertaining, and possibly emboldening (I might not know about that since I expect it to happen out there in the poly world not necessarily at the discussion table).
I'm okay if the next person who shows up is a complete surprise but an RSVP is nice too. Just in case this cold I'm nursing turns into the flu and I have to cancel. Give a holler is you need an open conversation next week. I can always use one. -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Who gets/gives the flowers, who gives/gets the chocolates? How to Guarantee a Happy Poly Valentine's Day!
Wed, February 21, 2007 - 12:05 PMI seem to be cold and fever free so will be at the table awaiting this week's surprise guest. Has anyone read Raven Kaldera's book, "Pagan Polyamory" yet? I got it for $1.98 on eBay (plus shipping) and it's worth much more than what I paid for it. I'll bring it today in case anyone wants to take a peek before ordering. I'm not pagan yet found it both practical and inspiring.
Am wondering if anyone else who is pagan can give some insight in how polyamory is perceived in the community. Other than that, bring your favorite topic to the table, I'll tackle anything. -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Questions raised by embracing open relationships
Wed, February 28, 2007 - 1:04 AMThose of you who are just beginning to explore poly - what are the questions that come up for you?
I still remember struggling with my willingness to consider someone who wasn't being honest to another partner. Learning to demand honesty in a relationship with me was just the beginning of my journey. I generally found that if I was honest, I got honesty back. Yet I used to think that this would be enough. If my partner didn't lie to me, I could be happy.
Somewhere along this road, I realized I really couldn't ignore it if someone was lying to anyone else. Not to make this a confusing tale - the man in question had begun dating me first, I was perfectly okay with him dating someone else. We lived 3 hours apart. He chose to lie to the new person. I would ask myself what my responsibility was to this other woman. Now I recognize this was the wrong question.
I no longer associate with anyone willing to lie to another. It makes things both simpler and more difficult. I met my partner's wife first. Of course, they were both operating with integrity. My first secondary after this was recently widowed. When he took a second lover, he was totally honest about his relationship with me. Both of them are very good friends of mine five years later, though he's no longer a lover. Would this even have been possible if we hadn't started with honesty?
Would anyone care to share questions raised in their lives upon beginning their poly journey? -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Questions raised by embracing open relationships
Wed, February 28, 2007 - 9:15 AMGosh Barbara,
You have so many interesting topics to discuss. I just wish I could attend the weekly group!
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Re: Topic for the Week: Questions raised by embracing open relationships
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 11:17 AMWow, yeah... been thinking about poly for a while, but am now in a relationship where we are actually attempting it -- both of us for the first time!
It feels right to me too that everything should be on the table for all involved parties. I just don't see a way for it to work and feel good for everyone unless this is the case. Lies always hurt. I've never seen them not.
I'm working through the jealousy issue too. I have a very strong sense of my own worth, so my identity isn't threatened by another's involvement with my partner. But I am facing a bit of the "what if he finds that Something Wonderful with someone else"? In the larger scope of things, I would encourage everyone, including myself, to follow the heart and do what's best for them. On a feeling level though, I have to admit, the idea of feeling abandoned bums me out. Ultimately for me it comes down to trust. Not just trust in the others involved, but in myself and in the higher purpose of things, which I believe always reveals itself in the end.
The largest challenge I'm facing is my cultural upbringing and the inbred idea that monogamy is the only way to have ideal intimacy. I'm trying to wrap my brain around the idea that I can be completely intimate on all levels with someone independent of whether or not anyone else is involved. Maybe that's an impossible ideal?
Whatever pans out, I find the whole subject is requiring my absolute presence and awareness.
Thanks for the topic and thanks for listening. Any input is great. :) -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Questions raised by embracing open relationships
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 1:02 PMHey, Rainey, welcome to polyworld :-) That "inbred" feeling about monogamy and ideal intimacy is so pervasive and tough -- we start getting the message practically from the womb that one day we'll find our One and Only. The presence and awareness you mention are the best resistance there is.
I have a feeling you and your loved ones are going to do just fine. I've lately come to realize that in the idea of following your bliss, it's the following that really matters, not the bliss -- if bliss happens, terrific, but doing something -- acting to make things happen -- is what keeps us awake and alive. Best wishes! -
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Re: Topic for the Week: Questions raised by embracing open relationships
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 1:28 PMWoohoo! Howdy back! :) Glad to see a familiar face here.... :)
And thanks for the input. I love your perspective on the bliss thing. Another reminder to stay out of the results. Just follow.
Yay!
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